皇家华人

鈥楽peak up and speak out even if your voice shakes鈥�: Anti-racism is too important to leave to chance

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Elaine Long

Welcome to the ECF Staffroom. I'm Elaine Long.

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Mark Quinn

And I am Mark Quinn.

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Elaine Long

We are programme leaders for the UCL Early Career Teacher Development Programme. Why are we in the staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems can be aired bluntly and where solutions can be explored.

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Mark Quinn

Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come in the ECF Staffroom. We will hear from early career teachers themselves and from the mentors and induction tutors who support them. We will talk about all things ECF, the challenges and the joys. So, why don't you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit and sit down to half an hour of ECF Staffroom chat.

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Mark Quinn听听
Hello and welcome to the ECF staffroom. Alison Wiggins. Alison, you're very, very welcome. Alison is a lecturer in education at 皇家华人. And so, as we always do, you've got to come into our staffroom and we offer you a nice hot drink. What can I fix for you?

Alison Wiggins听听
My drink of choice is a decaf oat flat white, which you probably can't get in a school staffroom, but you can definitely nip out. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Quinn听听
I might have to walk around the corner to get that for you. Yeah, I might have to. While I'm going around there, can I get you a biscuit, do you like anything with that?

Alison Wiggins听听
Yeah, 100%. I need chocolate digestives. If I'm doing any level of work, it's very important.

Mark Quinn听
We鈥檝e got a few of those stuck at the back of the cupboard. I'll definitely I'll find one of those for you that very, very good. You take your seat, put your feet up and I'll get that coffee for you.

Alison Wiggins听听
Thank you so much.

Elaine Long听听
Allison, welcome to the staffroom. We're really excited to have you here and we're always really interested to know how people came to be doing the role, that they're doing, we know our listeners will be really interested in that now. So could you briefly describe your role and tell us how you got there?

Alison Wiggins听听
Absolutely. So, I'm a lecturer in education, and I'm also the subject lead for the PGC and social sciences. I also run a module called feminist approaches to knowledge and pedagogy on the MA and education. I also lead on anti-racist work at 皇家华人 across the secondary cohort. I think that's everything. I also do anti-racist work outside of university, so I work for some charities, show races and the red card and no room for racism. I also do some work in relationships and sex education and PSHCE more generally through the School of Sexuality Education. So, that's what I do now.

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How I got here is I started teaching in 2008. It wasn't the plan to become a teacher. I wasn't one of these people who knew my whole life that I was meant to be a teacher.
But when I reflect on it, all the signs were there, like I was very bossy and I really, really like telling people what to do.

But yeah, I guess I just didn't really see myself as a teacher because of my subjects and my subject is sociology.

And I thought that if I was going to teach, I was going to teach at kind of further education and beyond. I didn't really think it had a place in secondary school because I didn't learn sociology and secondary school. I learned it at sixth form. So, my friend said, come in for a day to this school in South London. I just shadowed and did some observation. So, I did. And basically, I never left. I went in for one day and I fell in love with the school. I fell in love with a very particular class that I shadowed for the day. And then I ended up becoming their tutor from Year 8 all the way up to year 13. So, I knew these children as if they were my own.

And I worked very happily in that school for seven years, moved to another school, got promoted, did head of department, head of subjects, head of faculty. And then I think I reached a kind of a plateau where I was like, it's either I go into like senior leadership which, you know, I love being in the classroom. So, I would, I would always try to avoid that or I kind of do something different. And then the opportunity came to work here. So I worked part time in school and part time at university. From 2021, I was full time at university, but I've been a teacher since 2008 and I'm not closing the door to going back to being a teacher at some point because I absolutely love it.

Elaine Long听听
That鈥檚 really interesting and particularly your passion for teaching. I really identified with what you said about taking a form group of pupils from year seven all the way to year 13 because I did that in one of my first schools as well. And it really is a joy to see them almost grow up. They really do feel like feel like your own and it is pleasing to see how much joy you identify in teaching. So that's one of the things Mark and I talk about on the podcast. One of the things we always like to highlight that the joy that is in teaching.

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What about your current role working with adults, what joy do you see in that or what joy do you experience in that?

Alison Wiggins听听
A good question and I think you know people think that there's such a vast difference between the relationships that you have with students and you have with adults. And I actually don't think that that's necessarily the case. I think building positive relationships, full stop is a joy in itself. Like you having a group of people who trust you and who are looking to you for support and guidance and direction as they start the kind of next phase of their life. It's kind of what you're doing when you're teaching your twelves and it's kind of what you're doing when you're teaching maybe year 7 who just go into secondary school.

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So, for me, the joy comes with seeing that progress and being that person, that I can be with for the student teachers when they're in university and when they're in school and then looking to me, and actually all the things that I've experienced, all the things that I've learned through my career and my kind of journey and teaching, being able to pass that on to someone else and see it work is absolutely incredible. And then when they come back to UCL and they do masters or some of them are doing PhDs or becoming counsellor psychologists or educational psychologists then that joy, like it's exactly the same as when you bump into kids, that you taught when they used to, you know, come up to your shoulders, and now they're towering above you.

They've got kids and they're doing this thing, these incredible things, and you know that you are a little part of that journey. You know, you have the same experience with student teachers because lots of mine now are mentors. So, I mentored them when they were student teachers, and now they are mentoring my students and you know, that connection, and then that, yeah, all of that, I think, is really, really important, and it is, yeah, really joyful. Just working with people and seeing their progress and being there to help them. It means everything, and that's why specifically, I work in ITE, because I think that that's where my passion is, it's also where my joy is. So, I need to make sure that I maintain that.

Elaine Long听听
It's really interesting that you talk about that, that pattern almost dropping a pebble in a in a sort of puddle and the circles going outwards that you know, the people that you've taught become the mentors. So, you're able to sort of develop those relationships and that passion and joy, I think, particularly around social justice and the work you do more, more widely and that that brings me to my next question, actually speaking about teachers in in the early stages of their careers. You've been very generous with your time and you've made us a video for our enhanced programme on module 1 on anti-racism, and I know this is this is the topic that you have a great deal of expertise in and we're very grateful that you're sharing it with us.

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In your video you read, you reference the running me trust and the emphasis they place on the importance of racial literacy in schools. And I wanted to ask you a bit more about this. Why do you think racial literacy is so needed in schools and as well as watching your video off course, what are the best ways for our early career teachers to develop it?

Alison Wiggins听
I think that racial literacy is needed so badly in schools because we can't tackle something if we can't name it. I feel very strongly about the fact that it's in order for us to address issues that happen in a school. We have to be able to identify it and we have to be able to name it for what it is. I think a lot of the time in schools, what happens is it's kind of reactionary when it comes to issues of race and racism. They deal with it when it comes to the four. Whereas actually I think that what we need is a kind of underlying shared language and understanding of the central aspects of issues of race and racism. Because everybody has a race and everybody has a part to play in this. And I think that sometimes schools only deal with when it kind of blows up, when something explodes or something awful happens and also, you know, in my experience of working in schools is that actually naming it changes the power of it. So, a lot of the time when I was seeing racism enacted between students, it was called bullying.

It's like it is bullying, but it's not just bullying, like there was a racialised element to this and therefore, for me it changes it and therefore if our people are able to kind of understand the different levels in which racism operates and that it goes beyond just that interpersonal name calling or people being horrible to each other, and recognising that racism exists in society, therefore, it does exist in schools. Whether you choose to address it and identify it or not, it is there, it is happening, and we have to be proactive about addressing it.

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In order to do that, we have to have this language that we all understand. I think if you were to go into lots of schools and ask teachers, give me a clear definition of what racism is, they wouldn't be able to do it because it's so tricky. Actually we've been trained and socialised to kind of avoid it as an issue because it's not nice, it's awful. But the fact that it's awful shouldn't mean that it silences us. It should for me, make it call us to action to actually do something about it, to recognise this has happened, it is happening and it will continue to happen unless we do something about it. We've got to be the ones to disrupt that, and you can only do that if you've got that language and you've got those conceptual frameworks.

Recognise that racism is a part of a wider structure of oppression to do with scientific racism, to do with the levels of racism and it operating on systemic and institutional levels as well as operating kind of between people and in that particular spaces. So, I think racial literacy for me and even when I heard the term I was like, that makes so much sense because as a sociologist, these things are kind of ingrained in me. Like I kind of understood them from when I first started learning sociology, when I was in sixth form.

But I recognise not everybody has that unless you study sociology or something that has racism actually on its curriculum, how are you going to figure this out? So, I feel like if we were to give teachers and people who work in schools opportunities to reflect on what they do know and to learn what they don't know, we can create an atmosphere where people are not scared of it, because I think that fear creates silence and that silence just enables things to continue as they are and nothing changes.

Mark Quinn听听
That that fear is tangible, though, isn't it? And we hear it a lot because people do say when we're in this in this field, that, oh, yeah, I don't know the right words to use. You're not allowed to say this anymore. We used to say that. Do you come across this when you're working with student teachers that they've got a kind of reluctance to name things because they don't want to miss name things.

Alison Wiggins听听
Yeah, absolutely. And that is, you know, that fear is legitimate. Like it's ok to be scared because of course you don't want to offend and upset someone but remaining silent when you see things that are happening that are wrong is for me worse. So, I feel like, you know, saying the words like, I remember speaking to a student teacher who thought that they weren't allowed to say that somebody was black. I was like, you are allowed to say that somebody is black. Like, that's and all you can ask them how they're identifying. When they say, I identify as black or black, British or black African or black Caribbean, then that's ok. But they were so scared, they thought it was offensive.

Mark Quinn听听
Yeah.

Alison Wiggins听听
I had to explain to them, it's not offensive, but there's nothing inherently wrong with being black. It's something to be proud of. But you being scared to say it creates a barrier between you and that student. So, you have to recognise that not everything.

So sometimes the way that we've been, as we say, kind of brought up to just keep quiet about it and not mention it, because it's like impolite and it's like upsetting for people. Yeah, that that those layers of silence, I think build up in people and it means that they then become kind of mute in situations of injustice or situations that are happening because they're too scared of doing the wrong thing that they do nothing.

And I think that part of the learning process, as we all know, is that you make mistakes, you recognise those mistakes. Sometimes you have to apologise for them. Sometimes you have to do something restorative, but it that is a better process than you just kind of going along, avoiding everything and keeping quiet.

Elaine Long听
It's interesting as well, Alison, because you know, when I was working as a leader in a school, sometimes the first response to think about how we develop anti-racism is think about the curriculum and jump to the curriculum and think about, you know, who's voices are included in the curriculum, whose voices are excluded. But of course, I think what I learned definitely in my anti racism journey is as a step before that, which is racial literacy because I started to realise but who's designing this curriculum and what lens are they shining on it, and do they need to develop their racial literacy? I needed to develop my racial literacy and I needed to model that as a leader as well. But until you've got that, you can't really even begin to think about the curriculum because it's the lens that you shine on everything and I'm just interested if you think there are any more barriers in schools. You talked about one of those barriers being fear and people being scared of getting things wrong. Are there any other barriers that you see that prevent people from developing racial literacy in schools?

Alison Wiggins听
I think that they're in schools, there's an idea that things are kind of ok now in terms of kind of there being harmony and kind of this sometimes in schools they have a very colour blind approach that they're not really seeing things for what they are. So I think that sometimes issues of race or racism are seen as something that's out there, not something that's in here, right. So maybe and this is what I kind of said to my student teachers is that racism is happening whether or not you acknowledge it. It is happening in your classrooms. People are using racial slurs.

Young people sometimes do feel unsafe in school because of racism, and sometimes that's interpersonal racism that's happening with their peers. But sometimes it's the way that schools are treating them because of the racial group that they belong to. If you have a uniform policy that discriminates against people who have curly hair like me or have dreadlocks or have afros or have cane row or have braids, you are making that child psychologically unsafe in your space, you are making them feel like they don't belong, and that is an issue that should trouble every single teacher.

Not just the teachers of colour, and not just the teachers who have that level of racial literacy. It's really important that we recognise that this is racism is a societal issue, but for me it's a safeguarding issue. If young people are coming into school and they are feeling like this and experiencing it day in and day out, both in their peer groups and in kind of the wider institution, that is a problem. For me, like the barriers are of fear, are definitely there, not actually understanding that there is a problem is another one or being in denial about the issue itself.

Being like, well, I haven't heard anyone say the N word, so there's no racism in my sport. That is not it. You have to understand racism as something that is systemic. It is something that is pervasive across all aspects of society, and the sooner you realise that and you realise the part you have to play in disrupting and doing something about that, the sooner we can get things moving. But what I don't want is another generation of teachers to come in and be like, well, if racism comes up, I know how to deal with it. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore it.

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No, it is happening. It is something you have the capacity and the influence and the position to be able to address regardless of your subject and regardless of the nature of the children that you teach. Because the other barrier is people thinking well, racism isn't my problem because I only teach white kids. Of course it's your problem if you only teach white kids, like it's really important that we recognise everyone has a race like everyone has a race and everybody has a part to play in racism in addressing racism. Racism is everybody's problem and therefore all is going to take all of us to address it. If it's only the black and brown people doing the work, nothing is going to change. So I think that recognising that it is a real and current issue, that it has a negative effect on the learning of your pupils are two things that can change your perspective about your role to play in it, but the barriers are definitely that people are scared, people because they don't see the very stereotypical types of races and they feel like they don't really exist or they're not really important or they feel like because of the identities of the students that they teach or the area that they teach in, that it's not really their problem, and I think it's everybody's problem and therefore everybody has to address it.

Mark Quinn听听
Yeah. This is a staffroom, but it's not just any kind of staffroom. This is an ECF staffroom and it's really, really interesting. I think when you when you start rereading the framework and actually read the framework from a perspective of anti-racism, it's really interesting how the language sort of almost changes in front of you. I did this in preparation for this podcast and looked at just, you know, the first set of statements and I'll read some of the marks.
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Statement 1A from the early career framework is about using intentional and consistent language. To communicate our belief in pupils academic potential, so there's one.
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The rest of you know segments 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 remind us that teachers have the ability to affect the well-being and motivation of pupils that we are role models, that we influence the values and behaviours of the pupils, in front of us and the pupil outcomes are affected by our expectations of them.

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Now just saying those things out loud. In the context of the conversation we've been having, Allison, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that even the framework itself, is saying, we need to take this really, really seriously from anti-racist perspective. And what I'm hoping you have for us is some examples of this of, you know, new teachers you've been working with perhaps where you can see that they've got teachers who are aware of those behaviours, that they demonstrate in their own classroom through that from an anti-racist perspective.

If you can share some of those examples so that you know some of our new teachers might be listening to the podcast and will pick up some ideas from your experience.

Alison Wiggins听听
So I think that, like you said, it is about kind of reframing some of those statements through the lens of anti-racism and recognising that there is so much that is inherent and what it is that we do in terms of our intention to be equitable to all of our students. I think that one of the foundational things that I teach my student teachers is the difference between equity and equality. That is not about going into your classroom and treating everybody the same. And when we talk about inclusion in teaching generally, we're talking about inclusion in terms of like additional needs or kind of specific abilities that the students have and they don't really see it through the lens of their gender, their migration status, their racial group, their religious beliefs, all of those kinds of things are all part of inclusion as well.

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So, thinking about how we can bring that into our classroom, not because we have to, but because we see it as inherently beneficial to the students. So, with my student teachers, when we kind of talk about this, I'm very lucky in that, obviously, I teach sociology. So, we are legitimately allowed to talk about these things in our lesson because they're part of the curriculum, but actually it's not just about what we are teaching, it's about how we're teaching it.

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So, we practise culturally responsive pedagogy, so I emphasise the importance of you as a student teacher going in and getting to know your students, not getting to know what their needs are, whether they're EAL or whether they're people premium. But actually, like who are you, where are you from? Where's your family from? What are the things that matter to you? Where is it you're going? What is it you want to do in your life? Like figuring out all of those things and then building that knowledge into your curriculum and the way that you're teaching your students? So, we use culturally responsive pedagogy as an approach to teaching and learning, kind of in the lessons.

It's about the resources that they use. It's about them using their racial literacy to address these issues really clearly and consistently from the outset. So, they're not talking about issues of race and racism when it comes up on the curriculum, they're talking about it in terms of what we understand about identity or what we understand about differential educational achievement in schools. So, they're bringing it in all of the time and they're not scared to do that. They're not just waiting for this one opportunity where they鈥檙e legitimately allowed to do it, but they also do things like one of my student teachers last year, got really involved in planning for Black History Month and she was a white woman teacher and the kids were like this white woman cares about Black History Month. They couldn't believe it because they've never seen it before because Black History Month for them was something that the black teachers in the school did. That was it.

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So, it was the same for South Asian History Month and thinking about the ways in which the students, when they are in their practise, are trying to tailor their approach based on the young people that they have in front of them, but also kind of underlying that is their kind of understanding of the responsibility that they're going to do this in an anti-racist way, so that they're going to do this in a way that addresses the issues that need to be discussed in the lesson but are also doing it in a way that recognises the context that they're working in and the young people that they have in front of them.

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It's also something that I think we also need to recognise that it's not just young people that are suffering because of racism in schools, it's also the teachers and the staff as well.

Mark Quinn听
Yeah.
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Alison Wiggins听
So, I feel like an acknowledgement of that and recognising that there are different challenges sometimes that are faced by student teachers of colour going into particular context and working environments is really important and what I've trained my teachers to do is to advocate for themselves.

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So, there was a student who went in and there was no halal food in the school canteen and she was like, well, I'm just going to have to bring in food everyday. I was like, no, you need to ask them why there isn't halal food in the canteen and see if there's anything they can do about it.

She was very reluctant to make a fuss. She thought it was making a fuss and I was like, no, no, that's the definition of inclusivity. Like the fact that you can't eat in with everybody else is wrong and they have to do something about that. And guess what? It took them a while, but they did. So, it is about speaking up and speaking out. It's about observing what's going on and it's about making a conscious and deliberate effort to address the things that you think need to be addressed, both in terms of your teaching and learning of your classes, but also in terms of your wider responsibilities to the staff and the students at the school. So yeah, sorry that's a long-winded answer

Mark Quinn听
No, not at all, Alison., but it does make me think, though, that you know that last example you gave of the teacher who wants to eat halal and the courage that she needed to be reminded of in order to go back into the school and and advocate on her behalf, is that something that you see as another barrier, that it that it requires young teachers, new teachers in the profession to actually kind of guard their loins a little bit to go and have these discussions either with their own classes or with the leadership of the school. Is that a barrier for some of the trainees and young teachers that you've worked with?

Alison Wiggins听
Oh, absolutely. And I think it's a barrier anyway because I think student teachers and I'm going to teach about this tomorrow. They're in a really difficult position in schools because they're expected to act as if they're a member of staff, but they're not really a member of staff. They're like a guest. So, they feel like I'm here, I'm really lucky to be here, to work in the school. These people are giving me their time and their expertise kind of for nothing. I need to just keep quiet and be small and just not make a fuss and I'm just like, no, if this is the only opportunity you're ever going to have to be in this position, where actually is the responsibility of the staff to make sure that you're ok, so you need to speak up for yourself. You cannot expect people to just know what it is that you need and want in order for you to flourish in the school. You need to make it clear and you need to say it with a smile on your face.

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You don't need to be, you know, you know, don't need to get annoyed about things. You just need to articulate clearly and be confident that what you're saying you know, is correct, that you're entitled to or worthy of this particular consideration, whether it's to do with, you know, the food that you're eating, whether it's to do with the space that you have, whether it's to do with a particular, you know, there was one of my students who had additional needs. She was like, oh, I don't want to tell them because I don't want them to treat me differently.

I was like, but you need to be treated differently, otherwise you're going to struggle and that's ok. There's nothing wrong with that. But in order, and I think it's a really powerful message that actually if they can advocate for themselves, then they recognise what it is for the students to be able to advocate for themselves. And maybe we'll be able to support them in that by saying this happened to me and this is how we can make sure that it doesn't happen to you. So yeah, I do think it's a barrier and I do think it's something that all student teachers kind of have to grapple with because as I said, they're in this really in-between space, when they're in schools.

Mark Quinn听
Yeah, and ECTs do to somewhat, although of course they're not trainees, but they are at the very beginnings of their careers and they probably don't want to step on too many toes and they're feeling a bit humble about what they do and don't know. But actually, I think one of the things we tried, Elaine to get across in our programme, don't we, is that we want ECTs to see themselves, not as novices all of the time, but actually as colleagues and ever more important colleagues amongst their, in their teams and across their staffrooms, and this is how you be a good colleague, isn't it? You start by advocating for yourself, but actually you're advocating for others

Alison Wiggins听听
Everyone

Mark Quinn听听
In the staffroom and in the classroom.

Alison Wiggins听
Absolutely.

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Elaine Long听听

I think important lessons there probably for induction tutors and people in in school that are responsible for creating professional learning cultures, because our attention can go to the curricula and you know what do ECTs need to know about cognitive science. But of course, actually you need to take that a step back and think about if you're not creating an inclusive culture in your school, in the 1st place, that's the first thing you need to do before you even think about that development curriculum, because everyone's entitled to feel that, that sense of belonging.

Feel like they can express their identity freely and then be who they want to be, and that is absolutely a responsibility of leadership, really, which is one thing we haven't talked so much about. And I also sort of see this through the angle of leadership as well and the people that should be prioritising these things. But maybe we don't, well, I don't think we do prioritise those things as highly as we need to. And I guess that kind of leads to the next question because we were thinking a lot about curriculum here, and you know, as Mark rightly points out, when we shine a lens on those statements in the ECF such as the fact that teachers are role models that influence the values and behaviours of pupils and the pupil outcomes are affected by our expectations of them, when we shine an anti-racism lens on that, that has some really powerful implications of teachers. But anti-racism is not mentioned explicitly in the early Career Framework Programme, how do you feel about that?

Alison Wiggins听听
Yeah, I'm not very happy. I feel like as I said, there is power in naming things and I wish I would have known this when I was younger because I let so many things go that happened to me because I couldn't name it. I couldn't name a microaggression and like I didn't have the language to be able to do those kind of things. And I think that if you're going to, like I said, I think these things need to be intentional, like it has to be part of what it is that you're doing. It has to be part of any kind of EDI work that you're doing. And it should be something that is explicit because we know that it is a real and pervasive problem that significantly harms both staff and students, and I just feel like if there was anything else happening in school that we said, this is significantly it would be addressed, wouldn't it? Of course, it would.

听

But in the in this issue, it's just kind of left sometimes to individuals in schools who are not teachers. Like I wasn't part of the leadership team when I started the anti-racist working group and my school. I just saw a need and I had to address it because morally and kind of ethically, I couldn't just let it go, like I couldn't. So, I gave myself more work. I involved more people. I did all of this because I knew that it was important.

But it shouldn't just come, it shouldn't be left to individuals. It shouldn't just be left to chance that this is going to happen. It should be something that is intentional and that's built into the frameworks with which you're working. I always say that if this kind of work was part of Ofsted criteria, we would see this clarity, we would see this intentionality, we would see this very specific approach being used, but because it's not, it's just kind of something that seems to be viewed in some schools as like an optional extra.

But it just isn't. As I said, it doesn't matter if every single person in your school is white, it doesn't mean that you are exempt from addressing issues of race and racism that we know kind of happen everywhere, and we all need to be part of recognising and dealing with all of those things, because otherwise our society is going to continually go down the path where we are treating particular people in a way that we absolutely shouldn't be. And I wish that it was more intentional. we now have a anti-racist framework for ITE.
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I feel like everybody and again, but that's an optional thing. So, universities choose whether or not to engage with this. I don't think it should be a choice. If you, you know if you're serious about equity and inclusion, then this has to be part of what it is that you're doing at a fundamental and foundational level, not just something that you know, it just have kind of happens by accident if you happen to know someone or happen to have read a book or you know, an incident happened that you dealt with that made you engage with this, it shouldn't be. It should be part, for me, a particular school is a safeguarding issue. So, if we have, if it's compulsory that you do safeguarding training, why is it not compulsory that you do training in issues of race and racism?

Elaine Long听听
Yeah. No, I think that's really interesting and a powerful argument and it's interesting that you mentioned Ofsted criteria because often what's measured is sadly, what people pay attention to in schools. But the line that really struck me is this is too important to leave to chance. You know, we can't leave it to chance and have it as an added extra that perhaps the challenge for policy makers is to build this into the structure of school so it's a priority for everyone.

And that actually the way they're addressing it is something that they're supported to do and then and that we really evaluate the progress of that and this built into evaluation models in schools as well, and I think that that there's so much work to be done on that, and I think you present a really interesting provocation that people really need to stand up and listen to because yeah, I really agree with you.

Mark Quinn听听
It's a provocation, not just for policymakers. It's also for us as well, isn't it, Elaine? Because we, you know, we point, out that the framework is not, it's doesn't, you know is silent about anti-racism but you know so it was pretty much the programme that we wrote on the basis that framework, I think you know you'd be, you know, Alison you'd be pretty appalled I think if you look through the detail of our programme and we're sifting through for messages that we were trying to give to ECTs and mentors.

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Fortunately, we do have an opportunity to address that because the framework isn't static and we will be asked at some point very soon to start, you know, writing new materials and I think that's, and that you aren't the first person who's come into our staffroom or ECF staffroom and posed as a challenge like this. You know, things that the framework and our programme have been relatively silent on. So, I think, you know, it's a learning experience for us as well and it's, you know, and it's our responsibility as well because as you say, If it's not named, it can't be tackled.
听

You at the end of the recording that you made for us, for our enhanced programme, you pose a really confronting question actually a really tough question. You recompoint the finger at an ECT or maybe a mentor watching it and it is, what are the I quote your words back at you. What are the impacts of you as in the ECT and your schools, not engaging in anti-racist practise, what are the impacts if you're not engaged in anti-racist practise?

听

So, I'm bound to ask you what's your own answer to that question Alison?

Alison Wiggins听
I think if you're not engaged in it, what you're doing is knowingly allowing harm to continue. I don't say that lightly.

To experience racism at any stage of your life means that you are suffering, and you are. If you know about this and look at your students, just think I don't have the time, I don't have the energy, I don't have whatever, you're doing them a massive disservice. But what you're also doing is not supporting them, not protecting them and not treating them with the kind of respect and care that they deserve.
听

If you don't engage with this, you are knowingly allowing suffering to continue. You're knowingly allowing maybe your white kids to go along, thinking that we're all equal, everyone gets an equal shot at stuff and everything's cool. Not recognising that they have a particular privilege and that actually, sometimes it's really important for them to recognise that privilege and sometimes to share it or to name it, at least in in different spaces. And it's the black and brown kids that are going to continue to suffer, usually in silence because they know that even if they say to a teacher, I've experienced this microaggression, the teachers going to be like, what's a microaggression?

Do you see what I mean?

听

So even if I feel like young people actually are acutely aware of some of these things and have the language and that sometimes the frameworks to be able to deal with it, but they're dismissed because their teachers don't know this and then racism is treated like every other kind of poor behaviour or bullying incident.

听

We know that Steven, the MacPherson report. We know that it mandated that schools had to record racism, like racist incidents and now they don't have to do that anymore. So we've got no idea really of the scale of racism that young people are experiencing in school, but things like the Runnymede report and the YMCA report tell us really clearly, like 95% of kids are hearing racial slurs, more or less every day, and if that is happening and in your school and you're doing nothing about it, you unknowingly allowing people to be harmed and to suffer. And if they are feeling like that and experiencing that, how are they meant to engage with your lesson and learn? If you think about Maslow's hierarchy, their psychological safety needs are not being met, and therefore they're not going to be able to access or at least give the attention to your beautifully planned lesson.

听

As you know, they deserve to. It's not ok. And if you care about social justice and you care about equity and diversity. Then it means that you have to actively do something. Being anti-racist is an active stance. It is not something that's just passive. Like, oh, what if a petition comes up? I'll sign it, or if it's Black History Month, I might read a book. That's not enough. Like if you're working with young people, you have to be responsible for making sure that the future that they inherit is 1 better than the one that you were in. And that's just it.

Elaine Long听听
It's a really powerful, I think, a really powerful last line. You know, I like the way that you touched on the definition of anti-racism there because for people that are really new to this topic, I think that definition is hugely important with, you know, the difference between passively sort of supporting something and taking a responsibility in your everyday life in every interaction to challenge racism when it comes up to very, very different things. And I think I think that was the first important step for me in recognising that. That's really a powerful concept for people.

听

This, of all topics is probably going to be really hard for me to now ask you what you would write on a post-It note. But because it's a feature of the show, I'm going to have a go at it nevertheless. So we give all our guests on the podcast a post-it note to write some advice on.

听

What would you like to write on your post-it note and who would you like to give it to?

Alison Wiggins听听
I did really have a good think about this, because I feel like I鈥檓 quite good at giving advice to all my students. Being asked to write it on a post-it note is quite difficult but what I came with or what I decided on is to speak up and speak out, even if your voice shakes.

Elaine Long听听
Nice.

Alison Wiggins听听
So trying to get people to say something rather than feel uncomfortable being silent, like speak up, speak out, even if your voice shakes. And I would give it to everybody who works in a school.
听

To just try and empower them to recognise that they've got, you know, we always recognise that we have a responsibility and an opportunity to influence young people, but we've also got the opportunity to influence and support one another.

And for me, if a white teacher, it's always me that has to say sorry, excuse me, that's not ok or sorry, you've forgotten this. And imagine the power of a white teacher saying, 鈥渁ctually, excuse me鈥�. Like for me And it has happened a few times in my practise and in my career, and even while I've been here at 皇家华人, where somebody has stood up and said something that needed to be said, but not because it directly impacted them, right, so they were the ally and they did something that changed
things, but it didn't have to come from me all of the time, and I feel like, you know, the black and brown children that you may teach seeing you engage actively and kind of positively with anti-racism as a white teacher changes things for them. And it would be the same for your colleagues and even with the white teachers. Like, if you're a white teacher and you've got white kids and they see you engaging with anti-racism, they'll be like, wow, maybe this is something that we should like care about or be part of or whatever.

听

So, I feel like we all just need to do a little bit more of that. I kind of think that this works for all levels of anti-discrimination work, whether it's anti LGBTQIA, whether it's anti-disability, whether it's anti-sexism, it requires us to take the most important step which is to take a deep breath, and to speak out. Because when it's spoken out and when you've used language that people have to engage with, something has to be done. But if you keep silent, nothing is going to happen.

Elaine Long听听
I love the poetry of that line. I think that's one of our best post-it notes today Alice and I absolutely love the poetry of that post-it note as well as the meaning behind it. So, thank you very much for that.

Mark Quinn听听
Yeah, and we could talk forever. I think, Alison, but we do hear a bell ringing. We are a staffroom and that means that although I think your coffee might have gone cold, I've just found this oat milk that we're going to put in your coffee for you. Sorry, but the failure to supply the biscuits as well. Alison, it's been a real education and a pleasure to listen to you this morning. Thank you ever so much for giving up your time to talk to us on this podcast, but also all that work you did on putting that video together for us for our enhanced programme.

听

I'm absolutely certain that you've set us off on a path to improve our programme more generally and that's what we need to do. We might come back to you for further advice on that. I'm sure you'll be willing to offer it, but for now at least, thank you, thank you ever so much.

Alison Wiggins听听
You're more than welcome. It's been a pleasure. Thank you both so much.

听

Mark Quinn听听

Our thanks go to Alison Wiggins, an anti-racist educator and lecturer in education at 皇家华人 for sharing coffee and a chocolate digestive with us this week in the ECF Staffroom.

Elaine Long

Please do get in touch with us if you think you would like to chat with us about your ECF experience. In the meantime, do join us soon for a biscuit and a chat with another colleague in the ECF Staffroom

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Mark Quinn听听

If you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from. Search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of the ECF Staffroom, as well as more podcasts from the IOE.

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Elaine Long

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