皇家华人

鈥楤e unapologetically yourself鈥�: ECF Director Hilary Adli shares her recipe for success

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Elaine Long听
Welcome to the ECF Staffroom. I'm Elaine Long.

Mark Quinn
And I am Mark Quinn.

Elaine Long听
We are programme leaders for the UCL Early Career Teacher Development Programme. Why are we in the staff room? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems can be aired bluntly and where solutions can be explored.

Mark Quinn
Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come in the ECF Staffroom. We will hear from early career teachers themselves and from the mentors and induction tutors who support them. We will talk about all things ECF, the challenges and the joys. So, why don't you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit and sit down to half an hour of ECF Staffroom chat.

Welcome to the ECF Staffroom. Hilary Adli, It seems amazing that it's taken us this long to drag you into our staffroom. Hillary, for those of you who don't know, is the director of the ECF programme for UCL. You're very welcome, Elaine and I are slightly in awe. We have to be on our best behaviour with you this morning Hilary.听
So, I will make you any coffee you like. Just tell me what you'd like and there'll be a tray of biscuits beside it too,if you want to select one of those.

Hilary Adli
Ooh. Coffee. Thank you. I don't know whether I've been dragged kicking and screaming, to be honest, I've kind of been thrilled to be invited, having listened to and tuned in to all of the other brilliant podcasts. It's actually really lovely to be involved myself and enough of the good behaviour. You don't do it on any other day.听

In terms of coffee, yes, please, strong, milk, no sugar, please. Whilst I'm a sucker for a Percy pig, unless you've got a cheeky Jammie Dodger, you know, stuffed away somewhere, I'll pass on that. Thank you very much.

Mark Quinn
We, we've already got our strapline for the podcast Elaine, it's Hilary is a sucker for a Percy pig.

Hillary Adli
But it's just so professional. Thank you.听

Elaine Long
I was actually wondering if 10 on a Monday morning was too early for a Percy Pig. But then I was thinking, it's never too early for a Percy pig. I like your style. Hilary, we know that you're very busy in your role of ECF director for the UCL Early Career program, but we also know you've had many roles before that and a rich and varied path to that role.

So please, could you introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us a bit more about yourself?听

Hilary Adli
Yes of course, being the director of the Early Career Framework, I strategically lead all aspects of 's programme for early career teachers and obviously their mentors. So that is around 22,000 participants every year. And my role also obviously involves leading the very wonderful team of around 24 colleagues that drive it through the centre, working really closely with our delivery partners across the country.

But my career has always been rooted in education and in schools. So, without telling everybody just how old I am, I think I've been working in educational settings for 36 years and I started as a PE teacher in a large five form entry middle school in Wimbledon. Unusually, I was appointed as the head of PE at that school in my second year of teaching, which is a role I absolutely loved.

In fact, I always knew from an early age that I wanted to be a PE teacher because it combined my love of sport with my passion for working with children. So, it was a great fit for me. So, I went on to do various roles in that particular school, leading professional development, becoming head of a seven and also throughout that time led the borough a programme for newly qualified teachers as they were called then.

So, when the borough reorganised and the middle schools were no more, I crossed phase and became head of year seven at a large 11 to 18 inner London comprehensive school. I taught PE but also taught drama, English, art and amongst other things, catering was an all time low and was promoted to assistant headteacher. So I've held a variety of academic and pastoral roles in leadership over the years, and unusually for me, in primary, middle and secondary phases.

So, I've worked in all phases in schools. I achieved my national professional qualification, for headship in 2012 and at that time was doing a lot of voluntary work with the London Centre for Leadership and Learning, which is now the Centre for Educational Leadership at 皇家华人. Again, quite unusually for me, I had my children very late in life and with the support of my husband, I left my school role to start my own educational consultancy company.

This was in 2014 when my twin girls were a mere five months old and it felt really brave at the time. But because I worked really closely with the programme leaders at the centre whilst I was in my school role, I was actually offered lots of associate work leading professional learning programmes both in the UK and overseas at that time.

So, actually I've been a director twice in my life. The first time I basically led myself and my employer gave me quite a lot of trouble to be honest. So, from being this associate, the opportunity to apply for a programme leader role came up in the centre and I didn't get it the first time. But I did try again later and was successful then.

So, I started on the ECF programme back in May 2020 amidst the global pandemic and was working to deliver the early rollout in the north of the country. And the idea being that we've used all of the experience of delivering early roll out to lead the national rollout version of the programme. So fast forward a few years and here we are.

But my role as director is challenging in all sorts of ways. But it, it just feels great to lead a programme and to lead a team that I've been so fully invested in for what feels like so many years.听

Elaine Long
What brings you the most day-to-day joy in your role?听

Hilary Adli
What, aside from Percy Pigs?听

Elaine Long
Yeah. aside from Percy Pigs.

Hilary Adli
I love my job. I feel truly privileged to be in this role and genuinely my whole job is joyful. I deal with some difficult situations, is part of this role, but. Well, I think maybe it's been instilled in me since I was a young child, and I think I'm good at finding the joy in every situation, even when it's hiding a little bit on some days. There are loads up, honestly, loads of things that bring me joy.

I think working at the centre where there are I mean nearly 70 colleagues, I get to spend my working week every week with world renowned academics like Professors Qing Gu and Louise Stoll. I get to work with a team of brilliant programme leader colleagues across the centre who are all not just knowledgeable and solution focussed, but really committed to their roles, really committed to the teaching profession and across the centre because we deliver early career framework, but we're also the full suite of NPQs, bespoke and international leadership programmes.

I mean what's not, what's not to love, anyone will be able to find the job there but, but also I think what makes it, what makes it even more joyful is, is the culture that we work in across the centre. I think the fact that everything we do at the centre, not just in the early career framework programme, is underpinned by strong core values and everything is done with purpose.

So, it's a place, it's an organisation to work in where we demand excellence but always work within a culture of professional trust and respect. And I think because of this culture, because of the way we work together, what is really joyful is that as a woman in a senior leadership position, working in this environment means that I can be totally myself, I can show strength in leadership.

I can be as awesome as I hope I can be knowing that, colleagues really work with don't feel insecure as a result of that. In fact, quite the opposite. They lift me up and they empower me and I'm talking about male and female colleagues alike, and I know that that isn't the case everywhere. And I just think, imagine if we could take those magic ingredients that create this positive professional culture that we that we work in at Centre and bottle it. 听And you know what? I reckon we've definitely got a dragon investing in that. But I think in short, personally, I think whatever your role, wherever you work, you can always find a joy. I'm particularly lucky that I don't have to dig very deep to find it.

Mark Quinn
I always say to teachers, particularly when I was working in schools with teachers more directly, that no prior experience is ever wasted. You know, whatever you did growing up through school or through your earlier life, you somehow make use of that in the classroom. When you're teaching, you know, some story, you have some skill that you might have, and I suppose you could say the same now Hilary, that that in leadership and in your case directorship, no prior experience is wasted in the creation of Hilary Adli, the Director of ECF programme. So, is there, is there any particular role that you've had prior to this one that's helped you prepare for the one you're in now? And if it's the PE teacher in you, you can name that straightaway if you want.

Hilary Adli
Once a PE teacher always a PE teacher, I think. But you know, do you know what I think two roles come to mind. This was obviously a gazillion years ago, back when I was, it was called a probationary teacher back then. This then morphed into a newly qualified teacher and then obviously into early career teacher.

But this was back in the days when statutory induction was a year long. But also, Mark, you might remember as well, the formal observations and all assessments were carried out by the school inspectors in the borough. Terrifying. Terrifying experiences. So that that was one thing, but I think, you know, 36 years later, I still remember my first class. I remember how it felt to be that new teacher back in the days when being a teacher was less about data, there was less bureaucracy, there was more flexibility. And when as a teacher, you really could be creative and you could put the stamp on things. Now, the early career teachers that we work with on our program, you know, they are at the beginning of their career and I still remember how well I was supported by my mentor and how well, how well colleagues in the wider school encouraged me.

And I'm always mindful of that in this role now, because, as I say, I remember what it's like to be that new teacher, even though it was so long ago. And if you're mindful of that when you are designing programmes or visiting sessions and speaking to participants and early career teachers, I think that really helps.

But I think the second role that really prepared me for what I do now was being that induction tutor in the school in a large school, you know, often working with 14, 15 newly qualified teachers as they were back then, every year and simultaneously being the professional tutor. So, working with a number of universities, IOE included, you'll be glad to hear.

But you know, it was about providing high quality placements for PGCE students. And again, we had 15 to 20 of those students that we supported every year. So right back in the early days, I've always been really passionate about ensuring that beginner teachers had the right support in the first years of teaching, that they had a great experience because I knew then and I definitely know now that that getting the right support in those first few years is so vital in ensuring that teachers are happy and that they remain in the profession. So now I can use that past experience and expertise to really fully understand the challenges that face schools and school leaders and new teachers now. So, in fact, all of the processes, communications, every aspect of the programme in the way we deliver it stems from not just my experience, but the experience of other colleagues in the centre. I know, we know the issues facing schools and school leaders because we've been them.听

Mark Quinn
Yeah and actually it's being respectful of the culture in the school or the fragility of that in a school because obviously, you know, schools can be tough places to work and as well as wonderful places to work in a staffroom, whether that's a physical room or a cadre of colleagues really, really, really matters. Because an early career teacher, even if they're lucky enough to be and, you know, a cohort of ten or 15 other early career teachers or, you know, even that person feel isolated unless they've got that sense of comradeship amongst their colleagues.

And that really matters too. Yeah, so you remember what it's like to be that early career teacher, Hillary, but you also remember what it's like to be the person responsible for making sure that early career teacher in your school felt part of a, you know, the part of the wider profession, but also part of the wider culture within the school itself? Yeah, I agree that really important.

Elaine Long
So, it it's fair to say that the number of ECTs and mentors under your sphere of influence has increased significantly since those days when you were an induction tutor as you mentioned earlier, we now have over 202,000 participants ECTs and mentors on our programme who, as Mark said, all come from very different cultures in their different schools. So, what are some of the opportunities and challenges of leading a programme at such scale across the country?

Hilary Adli
Yeah, I think it's an understatement to say that a sphere of influence has grown, but yet we work at huge scale, and I remember at the beginning when we were, you know, sort of designing and planning for national roll out, it felt quite daunting. But we make this work and it's been a learning curve. But, but we make it work because we work really closely with our 23 delivery partners.

21 of those, of course, at the teachers school hubs. So the day to day delivery of our programme is devolved to them and they are our regional experts because they have, not just a strong reputation, but they hold really strong relationships in their regions and it's that that presents lots of opportunities. So, you know, we are, we're a growing national network or as Louise Stoll would say, learning system.

You know, we have fabulous partners both in the UK and over the world, and there are so many mutual learning opportunities. And, you know, we do learn as much from our partners. We hope they learn from us. So, there are further opportunities to have a wider influence on our school systems, for our partners to share their great practice and their ideas. And that's really important. It's important to yoke their strength and to really think about how we can bring them together.听

There's also opportunities in terms of the internationalisation of our programme, Running really exciting pilots in China and in the United Arab Emirates. They've started this September and they themselves create all sorts of opportunities. There's a real appetite internationally for a programme such as ours, a teacher development teacher, a programme that supports early teacher development and the professional learning of mentors.

So, I'm really excited about the opportunity that that might present. But what's already starting to happen, one of the greatest opportunities is that early career teachers now qualified and entering their third year of teaching, are becoming, they're becoming mentors. They're going to be engaging in the mentor programme, they're going to be supporting their own ECT or ECTs, and they'll be able to use their recent knowledge of the research base in the programme.

And that's really exciting. But also I'm looking forward to the opportunity where our mentors will in time become those induction tutors that create the conditions with a real understanding of the early career framework and what it is it's trying to do. Our induction tutors, if they're not already, will become the next head teacher, so the research base will become more embedded, that people will be working through the programme in a slightly different way.

So as the early career framework becomes more embedded and more understood, I think that creates opportunities in itself.

Mark Quinn
Yeah, it is huge, isn't it? You just think about the, the numbers. You've already quoted loads of numbers for us, Hillary, but isn't it really important to you because you also talked about the importance of that relationship in school, no matter how big the programme is, it has to be felt like intimately, doesn't. It has to be felt special to the ECT and their mentor talking about how they ask better questions for their year three pupils when they're doing, you know, maths, you know, it has to feel really particular, local, and you're right, I mean the key to that is of course obviously we hope that the programme is written in such a way as it can be interpreted like that, but the key to it really is the local delivery of it with the partners and no matter how big and important we might puff ourselves up to be, actually, that's not the important thing, is it? It's the, I call it, you know, it's the small, private, almost intimate relations that happen between mentors and an ECT. And I don't want to sort of, this isn't the answer to the question I'm about to ask, so you can come up with your own answer. Hillary.

But what is, what do you think the ECTs need most out of a programme like this? What do you think they want most out of a programme like this?

Hilary Adli
I, well, I think there were a few things I think being able to, being able to engage with a programme that is really relevant to them. And yes, when we're working at huge scale, as you've alluded to it, you know it's, it's tricky, but we know that professional learning experiences, the impact of them is so much greater when, when the content is so grippingly relevant.

And that's how, you know, part of the principles of adult learning. But, you know, I think they do, ECTs do want to feel that the programme is for them, that they, you know, we have early career teachers who have actually a lot of experience in the classroom already, who are possibly thinking, well, I don't want to start at the very beginning and I've kind of got experiences here that I can use.

And actually, I'm really good at questioning. I've had observations where I've been commended on that. I've shared my experience with others. Why do I need to go back and kind of do that again? And one of the things I'm really proud of is that our programme does offer that flexibility. Mentors, inductions tutors can work with early career teachers to think about their starting points to make sure that it is relevant.

We work so tirelessly to make sure that, you know, we never reach a steady state and there's always something else that we can offer. But I think, if I'm thinking about what I would want most for early career teachers on our programme, I'd want them to be able to use what they've learned on the programme to be unapologetically themselves in the classroom, to magpie ideas from other teachers, perhaps early career teachers in their live sessions, magpie ideas from other teachers in the school that they might observe or that they might have joint planning sessions with, but actually to find their own way with that. Not to just copy somebody else's style, to take everything they learn from the programme. Everyone they have, they engage with, dialogue with, and become, have their own teaching persona. I think that's one thing.

To be brave enough to ask for support if they need it. It's not a sign of weakness, actually. It's a real sign of strength to do that. My favourite mantra to find the joy, get involved. You know, involve yourself with other colleagues, other teachers in the school, get involved in the local talent shows and the year group events and, you know, be part of the school community because that's as important as the learning you do on the programme.听

And I think the other thing is the early career teachers is maybe new to the profession, know they're all at the same starting point, they're all at the, you know, the very first year of being an early career teacher. But that doesn't mean that they have so they don't have so much to offer other members of staff, other people in the school, you know, they come with their own talents and skills and just don't be don't be bashful. Be brave enough to share that because you've got so much to offer as well.听

I think, you know, nobody goes into, hopefully everyone goes into teaching as a career with their eyes open, but it really is, I think I want our early career teachers to know that they can already and they certainly will in the future make such a difference to the lives, to the life chances of young people. And, you know, if your, early career teachers, any teacher can learn as much from the young people they teach as they do as they do from you.

I think it's embracing all of that and I guess understanding that teaching is a bit like, if use that analogy of peanut butter, you know, there are crunchy days and there are smooth days and, you know, a smooth day will be followed by a crunchy day and embrace that, learn from it, dig deep in that bucket of resilience and find the joy.

Mark Quinn
Isn't that really, really interesting, Elaine, isn't it? To listen to someone as experienced as Hillary describe teaching in phrases that don't appear in the early career framework? Peanut butter isn鈥檛 there's no 7.3 peanut butter. But even I mean, I know that was that's the joke. But everything else you said, there was no there were no jokes there.

I mean, talking about finding the joy and being unapologetically yourself, I think that's, I want you to say something a bit more about that, Hillary, because some of the criticisms that are made, you know, put before us about the early career framework is that it promises something else, is that you don't have to be yourself. What you have to be is it 180 things. You have to do these 180 things, and if you do those things properly, then you are a teacher and you can enjoy it. You can make those differences that you say that every teacher should want to make for the young people in front of them. Unapologetically themselves. How does that fit in to an early career framework Hilary Adli?

Hilary Adli
Well, I knew you were going to ask me some difficult questions. So first of all, thank you so much for that. I would say to an early career teacher, when they're teaching in a classroom, they don't want their children to learn by rope. They don't want, you know, fine, they understand what a frontal adverbial is and when to use it.

But I don't remember teaching English all those years ago and actually naming it. We used it. We were creative with it, but it wasn't kind of drilled home in quite the same way. And I think if you can't work, maybe, maybe being controversial here in headteachers across the country will hate me, but if you can't be unapologetically yourself in your workplace, in your school, wherever you work, then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

And sometimes we have to be brave enough to step out of our surroundings and think, actually, I want I want to be somewhere where I can, where I can work in a particular way. There are always, you used the term 鈥渨hat we can do in our own sphere of influence鈥�. And I think whatever the whatever bureaucracy we face as teachers, as school leaders, there are always things that are within your sphere of influence to change.

There are creative spins that you can bring to play and you know ECTs need to be able to find their voice. They need to be able to, as I said, find their own teaching persona with support without being judged. You know, they need to be to take risks and try and see if something will work without someone saying, you know, you're doing the wrong thing.

But I think, you know, I don't know whether that's truly answered the question.

Elaine Long
I think it does. I think there's a real link to wellbeing and retention here. And of course, one of the aims of the early career framework is that we arm our teachers with all this research, inform practice that's going to serve them well and help them develop effective routines and practice in the classroom.

But there's another aspect to that. If we want the early career framework to be about retention and wellbeing, people need to be unapologetically themselves in the classroom, because if you're going to sustain a profession for, you know, 20 years or more, which that's our hope for our early career teachers, then to be anything other than unapologetically yourself is too hard.

I think there is room for that difference. It isn't about creating cardboard cut-outs of teachers. We indeed hope they have a shared body of knowledge, but at the same time we want them to internalise that and use that in a way that enhances their own identity rather than reduces it. And I think that's really important. I think you and Mark talked about that and I couldn't agree more, feeling a part of a community.

There's been quite a lot spoken about recently in terms of purpose and that the importance of purpose not just in education but in leadership in general, I think equally the same for teachers. They need to feel that sense of purpose and apart of that is developing their identity and eating Percy Pigs.听

Hilary Adli
I really recommend it and clearly peanut butter sandwiches in the morning.听

Elaine Long
I can't get behind you on the peanut butter because I hate peanut butter, but I do understand the analogy.

Mark Quinn
We've begun to touch on some of the controversies surrounding ECF Hilary. It does get some negative press, doesn't it? And I'm just wondering how you feel about that and how you would respond to some of it.

Hilary Adli
Yeah, I mean, I think it is a shame. I think there is a Twitter perspective and there's the perspective of those who are actively engaged with the early career framework, and I think they are perhaps different. I think back in the early days when the early career framework, the research base was new, I can understand why school leaders and teachers saying, hang on a minute, we've done it this way for years. Why do we have to change? We've always been successful.听

But now that it's further embedding, I think schools, I think school leaders, early career teachers, mentors are understanding what its purpose is. Now, you know, when we look at our UCL programme, for example, you know, our satisfaction rates from the get go have been way up in the 90 percents.

Our retention rates have been the same. Teachers who are working on our programme are the vast majority of really satisfied and are remaining in schools. I think that speaks for itself. I do believe that there are lots of misconceptions out there and the early career framework and the programme of professional learning that we as a lead provider, just as other lead providers do, you know, kind of gets a bad press.

But actually a lot of the misconceptions are around statutory induction, issues that happen in the schools, not necessarily with the programme or with the framework itself. So, you know, we analyse feedback really carefully from our participants, both ECTs and mentors and, and we look through the thousands and thousands of qualitative feedback and the majority of issues or any kind of dissatisfaction, they are not programme based or things that we as a lead provider can actually fix. #

They are generally issues pertaining to appropriate bodies or issues that are school based, for example, not being released to attend sessions and that sort of thing. So, you know, schools are provided with funding for early career teachers and mentors to engage fully with the programme, including having those regular mentor meetings and, you know, where school leaders are creating those cultures of professional learning, where they are ensuring that ECTs are getting a good experience, they are thriving and they are highly satisfied.

So, those who are perhaps more negative about the early career framework perhaps have some conversations with some of the highly satisfied early career teachers and mentors on our and other programmes and perhaps your mind may be changed.听

Elaine Long
You mentioned cultures of professional learning being an essential ingredient in the effective implementation of the programme, and I know that some of our research really speaks to the importance of school leaders creating those.
What advice would you have for school leaders to make sure that their ECTs have the best experience of the ECF programme?听

Hilary Adli
How long have you got? I think the first thing is to create the conditions for early career teachers and remember for mentors to thrive in their roles. You know, I think, first of all, become an expert in the framework yourselves, understand what it's trying to do, and make sure that you're invested in that,

I spoke a bit before about, you know, if school leaders really do understand the different starting points for early career teachers and the experience, the past prior experiences that they鈥檝e had, that will go a long way just to making sure that they feel that the programme and their approach to the programme is really relevant. School leaders, you know, protect that mentor ECT time, make sure that early career teachers are provided with the time to attend the live facilitated sessions, to connect with other early career teachers and take an interest in what they're learning, how they're applying their learning, and talk to them about it.

One of the most important things is about choosing the right mentors to mentor early career teachers. We understand, obviously, that, you know, with initial teacher education requiring experienced mentors as well, that, you know, there are only so many mentors to go around, but bring on those new mentors. Think about those really strong early career teachers that just finished their programme and give them the opportunity to mentor as well.

Because obviously then, you know, you get to access the funding as well. I would say also, be that lead learner, you know, when headteachers, when CEOs, when induction tutors model the fact that they are interested in their own professional learning, that they want to upskill themselves, that really does help to create that culture of professional learning, being that lead learner and modelling leading by example.

I just think early career teachers, you know, they鈥檙e at the start of their careers, we hope that they would have a really lovely long career in teaching. And just as I was provided with the opportunity, all those many, many years ago, you know, some of them are already really excited. They're excited, there鈥檚 excitement about being in the classroom and excitement about having their first classes, they want to be creative in their approaches to their lessons, and, you know, you have the opportunity to provide them with the feeling that they can do that and they can put their spin on things, albeit mindful of learning intentions, etc. So yeah, probably a fairly long list, but yeah, let them, let them find the joy, invest in them, talk to you.

Mark Quinn
So, you got a long list for school leaders Hillary. I bet your list for us as programme leaders with ECF is just as long of things that you'd like us to get better at, but if you could give Elaine and me our marching orders to go and get some, you know, to improve the programme, what do we need to be better at?

Hilary Adli
We love that. Well, obviously an infinite array of Percy Pigs in the morning on a Tuesday would be very nice. Thank you very much. I think, you know, bearing in mind that myself and you know, most of the members of the early career framework programme leaders team had a role as induction tutor in schools, I think one of the things that we could be better at is the way that we communicate with schools directly.

There is a fine line, you know, our delivery partners, only experts in the region, we, we want them to, to hold those brilliant relationships with induction tutors and with schools. But I do think we perhaps, we could work harder at thinking about what schools need from us directly. So, I think that's something that that we can really think about more carefully this year.

I think one of the things, we work really hard to make sure that there is an equitable experience across the country when, you know, when you have 11, 11 and a half thousand early career teachers on the program, we want ECTs, wherever they are in the country, to be able to have the same high quality experience.听

I do think, you know, further yoking the fantastic expertise of our delivery partners in terms of contextualising our resources. You know, we've started a lot of that work, but making sure that we continue to work hard and we continue to think, you know, what are the things that they are absolutely brilliant at. Let's, let's involve them as much as possible in those aspects of our programme as well. I think, that's probably it, you know, we, I think I spoke before about us never reaching a steady state.

It's not the way we roll. We don't think, oh look, we've got this, we've got this programme, we've got a, you know, an Ofsted outstanding badge if you like. That's fine. You know we're right now we've, we've done it, we've made it, we can just kind of tick over. Well you know we never feel that way. We always dig deep and think about what we can do to make the programme better, to make the experience better, to add more contextualised resources to create a higher quality induction experience, for example. So, the programme will go from strength to strength. I'm sure of that because of that real will to make improvements all the time.

Mark Quinn
Just, just listening to that, Hilary makes me think that there'll be people listening to this podcast, actually, those teachers that you described very much like yourself when you began as an early career teacher decades ago. They鈥檒l be thinking, Oh, I've got plenty ideas that I could send in to UCL to help improve the programme. So, here's an invitation. Invitation to those teachers who've got ideas. An invitation again to you, Hilary, that when we get flooded with ideas from, our ECTs and our mentors for how we can do even better, we'll invite you back into the staffroom so you can respond to those.

Hilary Adli
Yeah, most definitely. Bring it, bring it on. I think our programme is so much richer and better because we have consistently responded to feedback from our participants. We have listened, we've listened to feedback from our delivery partners, our facilitators, and we've gone away sometimes a little bit bruised and we've said actually they鈥檙e right, we need to do, we need you better at that, and the systems and processes and the way we deliver the programme has changed in response to that.听

So yeah, again, an invitation for me. Tell us, if you've got ideas, make sure that we know about them. Talk to us about them. Join in some of the forums that that the Programme Leader team create so that we can really think about, you know, the future. I'd be happy to come back unless you're going to ask me any more really difficult questions.听

Elaine Long
I think it links nicely back to what we talked about, about the opportunities and challenges of the programme at the start and that one of the challenges is reaching all our participants and making sure that they all hear the right messages at the right times because we go through so many layers of different people to do that and always working to make sure that鈥檚 better.

But for fear that my to do list is expanding by the minute, I'm going to bring us on to the last question, which is that we give every guest on our podcast a Post-it note to write some advice on. Now we want you to keep us clean, Hilary, but what do you want to write on your Post-it note and where would you like to stick it?听

Hilary Adli
Okay, Right. Well, I think first of all, can I have more than one? I鈥檓 going to have more than one

Elaine Long
No. Are you pulling rank here Hilary?

Hilary Adli
Absolutely. For the first time in my life. Yeah. Do you know what? Okay. I am going to I'm going to take two Post-its because I can't squeeze it all onto one. And they for very different audiences and I think my first Post-it, probably quite a long, large Post-it would be to all the policymakers out there.听

The early career framework has been brought in to improve teacher recruitment and retention. We want our new teachers to train and stay and thrive in our classrooms. We want teachers who have taken a break from teaching for whatever reason or were disillusioned with teaching and have moved on to a slightly different career to think about coming back into that role.

I guess my Post-it would say open up dialogue, please, with early career teachers themselves, because they will tell you what it is that they need in order to feel like teaching is a career that they can stay in and speak to those with experience who are living the experience in schools every single day and consider changes to policy based on knowledge from the front, if you like.

There are so many people that have a voice in that policy space and there are so many people that don't but would make a real difference. So, I think that would be my first Post-it.

I think my second Post-it. I would like to go to every woman in a leadership role or every woman in a school or an educational setting that aspires to be a leader in school or every woman that is a middle leader who who's thinking, actually, I quite like to apply or be a senior leader in school, I think I could do that really well. Be yourself, be brave, go for it, ask for support, find the right environment for you to do that. In fact, I do think perhaps we as a centre should offer women leadership programme. I think watch this space. I really think we should do something about that. But also for every woman that is already in that leadership position and find someone in your school, find a female leader who has aspirations and mentor them, give them that pat on the back that they need to support them and encourage them because it really is the most fabulous role.

So, I have pushed my luck and had two, but hopefully they鈥檙e Post-it鈥檚 that might send a strong message and be appreciated.

Mark Quinn
I can hear a bell ringing, which means that you've run out of Post-it space Hillary. I think for the first time you've taken the post it and turned it into a poster, but there's some really good advice there, I think, for policymakers and for school leaders, and I do hope that they are listening.

They should be listening. They should be listening to voices such as yours, Hilary, for all your decades in the classroom and education in general. Look, we're going to let you get back to a Percy Pigs and your biscuits. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to us in our ECF Staffroom. As I said at the beginning, I can't quite believe we've been so successful for so long in keeping you out of our staffroom, but we're very, very happy that we let you in at the end. Enjoy the rest of your day and we'll all catch up later, I'm sure to solve all the problems you've just presented to us Hillary.

Hilary Adli
Thank you. It's been a real privilege.

Mark Quinn
Our thanks go to Hilary Adli, ECF Director for UCL and our good friend for sharing a coffee with us this week in the ECF Staffroom.

Elaine Long
Please do get in touch with us if you think you would like to chat with us about your ECF experience. In the meantime to join the same for a biscuit and a chat with another colleague in the ECF Staffroom.

Mark Quinn
If you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from. Search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of the ECF offering, as well as more podcasts from IOE.

Elaine Long
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